So I think that Melina... (SPOILERS) (2024)

Is Miquella, a doll he made to inhabit similar to Ranni.

Melina and Miquella both "broke away from the design of their mother." Melina mentions this after you speak to Shabriri. Miquella broke away from Radagon's (Marika's) Golden Order.

Melina is FROM the Haligtree from how we get their armor set from there, but they say they were born at the foot of the Erdtree, only really possible if they were one of Marika's children.

Melina has the death-like mark similar to what Ranni had, and given that's what happens when an empyrean abandons their body to put their soul in a doll, this reinforces the doll theory.

Melina never said they are a maiden, only that they can fill the role of one.

Now that we know that Torrent was loyal to Miquella, and Torrent chooses their masters, and that Melina has IMMENSE respect and affection for Torrent, it's clear that it's VERY likely that Melina is indeed Miquella.

Melina's skill in holy magic is well beyond what any normal person should have, between being able to channel the Giant's flame, something the player can only do with the aid of an outer god, and the use of a unique support incantation we don't have access to (yet?), it's fair to say that at the VERY least Melina is not just some tarnished or mortal.

Melina has curious dialogue in regards to Boc, bringing up that his fearfulness and timid behavior, and questioning if being born of a mother explains his behavior. Given how we know Miquella seemed to only interact with RADAGON, the masculine persona to Marika, this lends even more credence that Melina is accidentally letting on that they are Miquella.

And of course, the fact that Melina has knowledge of personal, private conversations Marika had with other people in her family at the various churches of Marika.

In short, everyone who simps for Melina is gay.

"This woman has come in contact with Tokyo's manga. She is Unclean and would lead we righteous ones astray."

Interesting theory, but when you say "Now that we know that Torrent was loyal to Miquella"

That is an incredibly big claim.

If your referring to the DLC image with (80% sure it's Miquella) atop the Spirit Mount as conclusive evidence of Miquella being Melina, then I have to say that that is still only a theory you made. And not even a very solid theory at that. In fact the whole paragraph:

Now that we know that Torrent was loyal to Miquella, and Torrent chooses their masters, and that Melina has IMMENSE respect and affection for Torrent, it's clear that it's VERY likely that Melina is indeed Miquella.

Is entirely an unfounded opinion based in the fact that in the Expansion, Miquella was seen Rinding a white Spirit Mount.

First of all, the Spirit mount isn't even confirmed as Torrent. It's design is markedly White, and even if that is Torrent, we dont know the setting of the DLC.

If in the DLC, that is Miquella, then the setting likely takes place in 1 of 3 settings. The future, The Dream world, or the Spirit world. And in all 3 of these settings it is entirely possible for Miquella to have Torrent, or a Mount like Torrent.

If this is in an alternate setting like the Dream or Spirit world, the 'Spirit' Mount, could easily exist there regardlessof the Tarnished.

And if this is the future when Miquella wakes up, and the remains of the erdtree are being taken over by Godwyns Death, then Torrent being free of the Tarnished makes sense, and he could easily go to Miquella.

Also a lot of the points like Melina being able to use the Giants flame are kind of paradoxical if Melina is Miquella, as his Unnaloyed Gold, makes him incredibly resistant to Outer Gods, and the Giants flame houses the Fell God.

Also with a lot of lore at least linking Melina to the Destined Death Faction (we have no conclusive evidence on exactly how, all we know is during the Frenzied Ending, her marked Eye opens, and she talks about delivering you Death.)

There's also alot of evidence I personally saw demonstrated by Vaati in one of his recent videos pointing to Radagon and Marika still being separate until after Miquella and Malenia were born.

And finally the whole every group of Demigods come in 3's, along with the 3 Butterflies symbolizing the three children between Radagon and Marika.

So Miquella just... being Melina seems to be an extreme stretch. I would have gone the theory route that Miquella and Melina seem to be on the same side at least, that's a much more well founded theorycraft.

"Why do they call it oven when you of in the cold food of out hot eat the food?" -Sun Tzu

Interesting theory but imo there is far more evidence against most of what you say that seems more reasonable as well.

But the biggest hole in it all is Melina looks nothing like a doll or puppet and we have 0 absolutely zero jack s*** of anything to even suggest it and everything against it.

All heroes have established their thrones atop not just their enemies, but a large quantity of allied corpses as well. There are no monarchs with clean hands.

Kilam posted...

Interesting theory, but when you say "Now that we know that Torrent was loyal to Miquella"

That is an incredibly big claim.

If your referring to the DLC image with (80% sure it's Miquella) atop the Spirit Mount as conclusive evidence of Miquella being Melina, then I have to say that that is still only a theory you made. And not even a very solid theory at that. In fact the whole paragraph:

Is entirely an unfounded opinion based in the fact that in the Expansion, Miquella was seen Rinding a white Spirit Mount.

First of all, the Spirit mount isn't even confirmed as Torrent. It's design is markedly White, and even if that is Torrent, we dont know the setting of the DLC.

They have the same color hair, the same mane, the same horns, it's unlikely this is just a conincidence. I'm well aware this is a theory based on a single image, but there is plenty of significance in the small details of things.

If in the DLC, that is Miquella, then the setting likely takes place in 1 of 3 settings. The future, The Dream world, or the Spirit world. And in all 3 of these settings it is entirely possible for Miquella to have Torrent, or a Mount like Torrent.

If this is in an alternate setting like the Dream or Spirit world, the 'Spirit' Mount, could easily exist there regardlessof the Tarnished.

And if this is the future when Miquella wakes up, and the remains of the erdtree are being taken over by Godwyns Death, then Torrent being free of the Tarnished makes sense, and he could easily go to Miquella.

Also a lot of the points like Melina being able to use the Giants flame are kind of paradoxical if Melina is Miquella, as his Unnaloyed Gold, makes him incredibly resistant to Outer Gods, and the Giants flame houses the Fell God.

Yes, resistant, meaning he would be able to withstand it long enough to channel it. Similar to how he was effectively able to weaponize the scarlet rot in his sister.

Also with a lot of lore at least linking Melina to the Destined Death Faction (we have no conclusive evidence on exactly how, all we know is during the Frenzied Ending, her marked Eye opens, and she talks about delivering you Death.)

Who knows, maybe Miquella had some hand in that. There's no information one way or the other for now, other than that death mark on the eye usually accompanies an empyrean who shed their mortal body.

There's also alot of evidence I personally saw demonstrated by Vaati in one of his recent videos pointing to Radagon and Marika still being separate until after Miquella and Malenia were born.

As much as I adore his videos, the game has explicitly told us that they have always been the same.

And finally the whole every group of Demigods come in 3's, along with the 3 Butterflies symbolizing the three children between Radagon and Marika.

I'm not sure where this is coming from, could you elaborate? Marika technically had FOUR demigods with Godrick, the omen twins, and Godwyn when she was wed with Godfrey. Yes Godrick is technically a descendant of Godfrey rather than a direct son, but he's still considered a demigod.

So Miquella just... being Melina seems to be an extreme stretch. I would have gone the theory route that Miquella and Melina seem to be on the same side at least, that's a much more well founded theorycraft.

Possible, but then why was Melina hidden from the other demigods? If they share motives, why was only Melina the one who doesn't get any sort of recognition?

VFalcone posted...

Melina isn't a doll though. She's a spirit. It's much much more likely that she's his sister and very close to him. Not literally him.

Do you mean how Melina appears and disappears as if by magic? Ranni in her doll form does the same thing.

"This woman has come in contact with Tokyo's manga. She is Unclean and would lead we righteous ones astray."

CerusSerenade posted...

They have the same color hair, the same mane, the same horns, it's unlikely this is just a conincidence. I'm well aware this is a theory based on a single image, but there is plenty of significance in the small details of things.

I just checked again, and Torrents art has his base fur coloring a darker Grey, and the horse Miquella(?) Is riding is whiter. However thos could easily not be an actual deciding factor, the artist could have just made Torrent a but brighter.

Yes, resistant, meaning he would be able to withstand it long enough to channel it. Similar to how he was effectively able to weaponize the scarlet rot in his sister.

We have never been told Miquella Weaponizes his sister scarlet Rot. In fact he is constantly searching for ways to remove it from her, even turning his back on the Golden Order to help her at least stall the Rot with Unnaloyed Gold.

Who knows, maybe Miquella had some hand in that. There's no information one way or the other for now, other than that death mark on the eye usually accompanies an empyrean who shed their mortal body.

That's not cause and effect, we know Rannis Doll has a Marked Eye, we are never given any reason, and we see that Melinas eye has a mark on it as well. This doesn't tell us that "the eye usually accompanies an empyrean who shed their mortal body." We dont know what it means, all we can do is speculate it might have a connection with Death. As both have some circ*mstantial evidence to support they might be related to the Destined Death Faction.

As much as I adore his videos, the game has explicitly told us that they have always been the same.

The game states that they were different, and we were never told they occupied the same space until we found them both in the Erdtree. In fact: "In Marika's own words. O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be s***tered, both."

I'm not sure where this is coming from, could you elaborate? Marika technically had FOUR demigods with Godrick, the omen twins, and Godwyn when she was wed with Godfrey. Yes Godrick is technically a descendant of Godfrey rather than a direct son, but he's still considered a demigod.

You answered your own question. Godrick isn't a child of Marika. He's of the Golden lineage, of Godwyn. So Marika, and Radagon each still had children in 3's.

Possible, but then why was Melina hidden from the other demigods? If they share motives, why was only Melina the one who doesn't get any sort of recognition?

We haven't gotten any lore on Melina, except that she's born under the Erdtree, she's referred to as the Kindling Maiden, she has no memory, and her body was burnt, and now she exists as a spirit at sites of Grace.

This could easily be seen as she's literally a Death related Demigod representing Fire. Both extremely taboo in the Golden Order, as it prophecies the Death of the Erdtree, and Melina could have been the Emperean born to end the current Golden order.

Do you mean how Melina appears and disappears as if by magic? Ranni in her doll form does the same thing.

No I believe they mean literally. Her body is dead, and her soul exists, and she's able to manifest as a spirit near Grace.

"Why do they call it oven when you of in the cold food of out hot eat the food?" -Sun Tzu

CerusSerenade posted...

Do you mean how Melina appears and disappears as if by magic? Ranni in her doll form does the same thing.

No. As Kilam said, I did mean literally. Melina is a spirit, like Torrent. She has no body and goes where she wants. Ranni may be a spirit, but the dolls she possesses are not.

Kilam posted...

We haven't gotten any lore on Melina, except that she's born under the Erdtree, she's referred to as the Kindling Maiden, she has no memory, and her body was burnt, and now she exists as a spirit at sites of Grace.

Was her body burnt? I thought she never had a body to begin with

Kilam posted...

I just checked again, and Torrents art has his base fur coloring a darker Grey, and the horse Miquella(?) Is riding is whiter. However thos could easily not be an actual deciding factor, the artist could have just made Torrent a but brighter.

We have never been told Miquella Weaponizes his sister scarlet Rot. In fact he is constantly searching for ways to remove it from her, even turning his back on the Golden Order to help her at least stall the Rot with Unnaloyed Gold.

Yes, I'm attributing his lighter color to the lighting itself.

Miquella made her a weaponized prosthetic arm and enamored her such that she fights seemingly solely for him. The strongest empyrean is his guardian. There's a very real possibility that the only reason Malenia feels this way about Miquella at all is because of his ability to influence and enamor people with himself.

That's not cause and effect, we know Rannis Doll has a Marked Eye, we are never given any reason, and we see that Melinas eye has a mark on it as well. This doesn't tell us that "the eye usually accompanies an empyrean who shed their mortal body." We dont know what it means, all we can do is speculate it might have a connection with Death. As both have some circ*mstantial evidence to support they might be related to the Destined Death Faction.

We can speculate that two empyreans who, in this theory, did the exact same thing in shedding their body and retaining their soul, something that CREATES a death mark in the same shape as the death rune used for the Those Who Live In Death ending probably got that mark on their eye as a result of shedding their body and retaining their soul.

The game states that they were different, and we were never told they occupied the same space until we found them both in the Erdtree. In fact: "In Marika's own words. O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be s***tered, both."

The game tells us people BELIEVED they were different, but the artist who knew them had to hide his revelation. It's clearly a well kept secret. That speech from Marika sounds like her last words before acting in defiance of Radagon to initiate the s***tering.

You answered your own question. Godrick isn't a child of Marika. He's of the Golden lineage, of Godwyn. So Marika, and Radagon each still had children in 3's.

He's a child of Marika in a sense, a descendant who carries her divine blood. That he's not a DIRECT descendant is trivial.

We haven't gotten any lore on Melina, except that she's born under the Erdtree, she's referred to as the Kindling Maiden, she has no memory, and her body was burnt, and now she exists as a spirit at sites of Grace.

Melina doesn't come back as a spirit after he uses herself as kindly. She's completely gone from the game. I'm not sure where you're getting this "she exists as a spirit at sites of grace" thing.

This could easily be seen as she's literally a Death related Demigod representing Fire. Both extremely taboo in the Golden Order, as it prophecies the Death of the Erdtree, and Melina could have been the Emperean born to end the current Golden order.

If she was a demigod of fire she wouldn't have such notable skill with holy magic associated with the Erdtree, and she certainly wouldn't have any reason not to use it in the fight against Morgott, or to hide it. What's more, Omen children are seen as more of a taboo and disgrace than anything else, and they are STILL recognized in both Morgott and Mohg.

No I believe they mean literally. Her body is dead, and her soul exists, and she's able to manifest as a spirit near Grace.

She's not dead until she burns her body with the Giantsflame, but once she is, she doesn't come back as a spirit at all, as I said earlier, she just straight disappears from the game because she's totally dead, perhaps having returned to his body in the egg.

I'll say I could totally be wrong, and Melina could be the Gloam Eyed Queen, and that's why her name was stricken, I'm just saying there's a lot connecting Miquella and Melina that seems a bit too convenient.

"This woman has come in contact with Tokyo's manga. She is Unclean and would lead we righteous ones astray."

VFalcone posted...

No. As Kilam said, I did mean literally. Melina is a spirit, like Torrent. She has no body and goes where she wants. Ranni may be a spirit, but the dolls she possesses are not.

Was her body burnt? I thought she never had a body to begin with

If this were the case why did Melina ride Torrent at all? Why do they need escort to the capital? There is absolutely NO indication that Melina is only a spirit. They have to have a physical body, or certainly they wouldn't be able to act as kindling for the giantsflame.

Where is this whole "Melina is just a spirit" thing coming from in the first place?

"This woman has come in contact with Tokyo's manga. She is Unclean and would lead we righteous ones astray."